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Dr-Uncle wrote 39 articles and got 105 comments. The last article was submitted on 05/05/08

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Title: Are you a Mongol or a Kirat?

On Wednesday, January 16th 2008, 12:02 PM, by Dr-Uncle

I believe that the word "Mangol Race" is a synonym to "Kirats".
Different scholars have documented Kirats history in different names such as Kirats, Himalayan races, Mongols, Asian etc and now "Janajanti". However, the most often used in the past and appropriate seems to be "Kirats".

The most humiliating and demeaning name given to those brave warriors in the southern parts of Himalayan range (Gangetic plain and its viscinities) as expressed in Hindu mythology), was "Rakshyasha", who were bravely fighting against the Indo-Aryan invasion, for the protection of their lands and self existence (Rakshya + Yasha = Rakshyasha). They started calling them "Rakshyasha" exaggerating with fantasy and portraiting them as the most most cruel people in the world. As for instances, Jalandhar, Ravan, Mahe, Mali, Bidhyut were the great Kirat warriors and scientists who fought bravely against Indo-Aryan invasion and ultimately were killed by conspiracy. And also Akalabya (who were rejected from the Aryan Guru Kul for education during Pandav period) later he became the greatest warrior on his own and was killed for no reason. However, he is being worshipped by people as yet in Indrachauk, Kathmandu as "Akash Bhairab" seems to be a symbol of love and respects.

It's quite natural that people used to migrate for search of prosperous life, better places in those days and can be taken as a normal phenomenon. Perhaps because of the same reason the people living in the northern belt of Himalayan range (then prosperous country), started building "the great wall" in their south north boarder 2200 years ago in expense of millions of lives, however, the people living in the south belt of the himalayan range were
not aware of the inpending danger /conspiracy and not well protected and ultimately victimized by cruel invasion and conspiracy.

Yet, We have to believe in the principle of civilized society, and remember the words of great philosopher Camfucius who said "Forget the the injury but never forget the kindness".

Thank you all,
Dr Uncle Kirati ...

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mindra_y

macro and micro

Date Friday, May 9th 2008, 7:04 AM

Mangol is a broad concept of kirats and kirats are the micro concept , Mangol is a aggregate form of all mangol oriented people including kirats but kirat is small area related to only rai and limbu.
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dagvadorj

I am a Mongol

Date Friday, March 21st 2008, 7:23 AM

I am a Mongol and am pretty sure that Kirati people are of Mongol descent. By this I mean you guys are Mongols as we are. They are many groups of isolate Mongols around the world. They can be classified as those who are originated from proto-Mongol Hun or Xianbei, those who are originated from Genghis Khan's troops, those who migrated in modern era.

Research about Hazara, Aimak and Moghul people who live in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and India. There are Sogwo-Arig and other Mongols in Chinese Yunnan and Sichuan provinces. Mongols in Qinghai are now very assimilated to Tibetans.

Plus, note that Yalawar seems like to be some of the medieval Mongolian person names. Does this have a meaning in Kirati languages?

Thanks,
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Anita

It is not wise to say we are MONGOL OR MOGOLIANS

Date Sunday, January 27th 2008, 4:15 PM

It is not wise to say we are MONGOL OR MOGOLIANS...

There is no historical support and fact. There is no possiblity by geographically, politically, historically, socially.

Maybe we kirati have genetic connection with Mogolian people of mongolian in ancient STONE AGE when earth was young and lands, sea were formation stage.

But if we go that far.... Fish, dog, Monkey might become our great-great grand parents.
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premraine

We are Indigenous

Date Friday, January 25th 2008, 1:12 PM

I agree with you guys, undoubtedly we are the indigenous people of Nepal,the most ancient ,the first settlers.

Sadly,as native American indigenous people are called Indians(because Columbus thought he had landed in India when he first reached the central America) our race was given a foreign name by western scholars i.e.Mongoloids.It is not only us,but Japanese,Burmese,koreans are called Mongoloid race !!!
Similarly few arrogant and ignorant western scholars(i.e.cow boy scholars)went to kathmandu and asked few KUWA KO BHYAGUTA( bahuns and newars of Kathmandu who had never left the KHALDO) about Kiratis ,and wrote we were Tibeto-Nepalese.The reality is we are not Tibetan descendents.There are hundreds of Tibeto-Burmese languages and not all speakers are Tibetans or their descendents.Our history is older than Tibetans'
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Susma

I totally agree with Dev view and logical

Date Thursday, January 24th 2008, 9:03 PM

I totally agree with Dev view and logical point...

Yes, Nepali Himalaya arange is the longest and hardest mountain ranges in the world record. Even in modern time 21st century, people can not think to climb just up to Mt. Everest until Tenzing and Hillary climb up by their luck.

Forget in ancient time, Mongolian cross these Himalayan and live in Nepal and become Kirat. Do not even think "Dream Ladoo".

I disagree to those poeple who claimed we kirat are mongolian.

Yes, I agree truly that we are a native original people of Nepal. We were the master, god, goddess and the rulers.
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Dev

KIRATI PEOPLE ARE NOT MONGOL BUT NATIVE

Date Thursday, January 24th 2008, 8:51 PM

In my research, study and knowledge.

KIRATI PEOPLE ARE NOT MONGOL BUT NATIVE OF NEPAL....

Yes, Mongolia is a country and locates between china and Russia. People who born on that country called Mongolian or Mongol.

If you look at physical geographic of Asia, It is impossible to cross theses giant mountain range from Mongolia to Nepal. Even today people already made some road and transportation... and even still almost impossible to cross from Mongolia to Nepal. So how come you think that native Nepali kirat people have blood root of Mongolia.

If we try to mix Mongolian with Nepali kirat, we can mix elephant with Ameba and butterfly.

Just take moment … sit back … and think
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Arati

Nepal was Mahabharat & Rakshyasha was Racist

Date Thursday, January 24th 2008, 8:39 PM

Nepal was Mahabharat & Rakshyasha was Racist word of ancient time of Mahabharat brasha.

East to West Hills "Churey Pahad" used to called Mahabharat Prabat in ancient time. Modern time, Geologist named in nepali Churey Pahad, could be because these hills are made up by Churey dunga (stones).

When Aryan Khas migrated to north India and south Nepal, they encountered with Kirati Tribes with different body structure and absolutely different social, religion, cultural and languages. Aryan Khas people used a racial tone or language "Rakshyasha/Rachchhes" to Krati people. That word was RACIAL word of ancient time. If we translate it today, it become actual meaning of Racism.
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premraine

Mongol /Mongoloid

Date Tuesday, January 22nd 2008, 1:15 PM

Genghis Khan's descendents surely ruled most of south Asia;they were called Moghals / Mugals(words derived from Mongol).However,when they reached India,they were carrying not only Mongol genes but Persian genes as well(they travelled via Persia,present day Iran conquering and subjugating others on the way).Nevertheless,Mongoloid features were clearly and distinctly present in their psysique( look at the paintings of great Mogul rulers )
Kirats had already been living in the Himalayan regions when Aryans entered south Asia from west long before Moguls' arrival.That is why they have mentioned Kiratis / kiratas in Vedas.
Chinese civilisation started at least 3 thousand years before Genghis khan.

Western doctors called Down's syndrome Mongols / Mongolism because they thought these children looked like people of Mongoloid race(Down's syndrome was reported much later than the description of Mongol race)

To conclude,

1.There is no evidence that Mongoloid race originated from Mongolia.Unfortunately,world understands Mongoloid as a RACE irrespective of its members' origin or Nationality.Japanese people would never accept they originated in present day Mongolia,but they have accepted that they belong to the Mongoloid race.Well,Kirati intellectuals and Scholars can try to find an alternative name for this race,but until that happens and world accepts,we have to put up with it ! (Personally I have no problem changing the name.)

2.I personally think Shiba is a mythological figure unlike Buddha,Genghis khan,Akbar(the Mogul emperor) who are historical figures. But myths usually are based on certain real stories or events eventhough myths are after all myths.
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Dr-Uncle

It could be a myth but interesting

Date Tuesday, January 22nd 2008, 8:40 AM

There are few interesting points mentioned repeatedly in many hindu religious scripts/ books, could be a myth but seems interesting.

1. Shiva was humiliated for not being their own caste in a Aryan ethnic ritual/consecration, (a sort of tradtional family gathering with yagya, hom etc) in his father in law's (Dakshya Prajapati) house, Shiva's wife Satya Devi could not bear it and committed suicide at the same moment.

2. After that incidence, while Shiva was in mourning after the death of Satya Devi, he was sleeping alone, almost naked, unaware of the environment in a lonely place near a river, some rishi (Brahmans) wives came to fetch water, saw him sleeping and somehow unknowingly got attracted by his fabulous physical looks and stayed there peeping him with greedy eyes for long time till their husbands (Rishis) came and started to curse and even tried to kill Shiva. While they agitated Shiva for no reason, he was really furious and was going to kill every one around. They did not know Shiva had a power to destroy whole world, then the clever Aryan king Vishnu knew the upcoming catastrophy, came there with other all Devas started to please him by apologizing on behalf of Rishis, worshiped him and ultimately pleased him and started worshiping his sex organ as "Shiva Linga" as a symbol of creation and reality.

4. Even today, Shiva temples/shiva lingas are much more common than any temples in the Indian subcontinents. Nine famous jyotirlinga including Pashupati Naath are thought most holiest among all.

4. Halahal bish (deadly poison) came out of sea churning (samudra manthan) was offered to the lord Shiva saying that there is no place to keep/hold the poison on the earth: as earth can not withhold and manage that deadly poison. That deadly poison was going to destroy all living beings. They told him that no one is able to handle the halahal poison except the lord Shiva. It could be a conspiracy to kill him, however, lord Shiva did survive after accepting Visnu's request and after drinking that deadly poison. Whatever or whoever he was but he seems like a sober/gentle and a kind super man.

4. Shiva was worshiped for getting power and for any impending danger or catastrophy Shiva was requested and worshiped for salvation of all human beings. He could be a powerful king in those days.

5. Every thing seems possible:
Its said that some Kirats had enormous power in the past that allowed them to disappear physically mixing spiritually as well as physically into the nature or into the earth without having the ultimate death. Science is still in its infant stage.
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Dr-Uncle

Kirats celebrated Yale year 5069 in New

Date Monday, January 21st 2008, 6:59 PM

Visit the link below:

http://www.usnepalonline. com/news_kirat_rai_event_ nyc_january20_08.htm
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Dr-Uncle

Meaning of Mongols and Mongoloid

Date Monday, January 21st 2008, 3:24 PM

In medical termilogy, Mongoloid is a pathological condition, also called "Down syndrom" characterized by dwarfism (short stuture), small eyes, flat nose and dumbness and mental retardation of genetical origin. Mongoloid is not a kind word but is a curse. So dont let others call you a Mongoloid. I think we have to choose the best one from list that alredy exists.
Based on the historical evidence, this year we are celebrating new a year 5068 (3000 years BC) commemorating the great king Yalamba, far beyond the year 1300-1400 BC what Narahang jyu mentions. New year eve starts from the Maghe Sangkrati when all other Janajati/sherp/tamang/gurung/tharu also celebrate, quite close to the same duration.
I find no clue why the word "Hang" seems more closer to Kirat names than the word "Khan". Narahang may be right but we need to explore more. Who the Khan of Mongolia fought with during that period? whereas the great wall of China was already built during that period. One reason to build that great wall was to protect then prosperous and prosperous country, China from people of different origin confedering with the natives of Mongolia from North and West. The great wall was built 2000 years ago/ started before 200 years BC and continued and maintained by all subsequent rulers to protect that reason, mainly China and Tibet.
I dont know how irritable and smelly was the trident carrying Shiva jee, But he was the only one super person who never wanted to harm any body, never plotted any conspiracy any body, loved amimals including snakes as well as human beings, love musics ( as he always carry double drum, damaru). He was the exellent dancer ( no one could dance Dandav dance except him. The only person who Aryan kings could not defeat and they had to surrender. Trident was his only weapon he carried to protect himself from enemies. However he is still mysterious person, could be a great king or a superman in those days. We need to explore more and more. Thank you all.
Dr-Uncle Kirati
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narahang

Am I a mongol?

Date Sunday, January 20th 2008, 10:01 PM

A Mongol or a Kirat

I find this a lively discussion. I couldn't resist the temptation to chip in. So here is my input on this topic.

My understanding of the word Mongol is that it is a generic name given to a race of people who originated from Mongolia and spread overtime in many parts of Asia namely: China, Tibet, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma, Northwestern part of India….and even deep inside Europe and Middle East.

This spread of Mongols happened during the Mongol invasion era (13th-14th cents.), starting from Genghis Khan's time until his descendants up to his grandson Kublai Khan's time. It covered a time span of some two hundred years, not counting the Mogul era (circa 1500-1700 a.d.) in India whose rulers some writers say are also distant descendants of Genghis Khan.

Some researchers on Genghis Khan say that one in every 200 men today is genetically linked to Genghis Khan. In some Asian countries the ratio is even lower; as much as one in every 100 or less. So, Genghis Khan was not only a superb warrior but a remarkable lover. He must have worked overtime to achieve such feat.

When Gopal Gurung registered a party as "Mongol Organization" I think his intention was to bring about a unity among us flat-faced chinkies and to boost our self-respect, soar up our morale, and enhance our sense of pride in ourselves to have belonged to a race that history bears witness to be the conquerors of the biggest land mass ever.

History does say that the Mongols did subjugate Northern part of India. One must acknowledge that Kiratis not only look similar to Mongols, but also behave similarly in many respects. Therefore, it should not be a complete crap to assume the Kiratis could be the descendants of the Mongols who remain behind and stayed in the cooler hills when most of others returned home after the conquest and plunder in the later centuries? Maybe we should try to look from the point of view of Gopal Gurung and try to understand why he thinks the way he thinks. And not just read myths and some hurriedly done hypotheses of some writers and believe in them simply because they are in black and white and we have read them, therefore, presume that they must be true.

Genghis Khan, a Mongol was no saint. I do not applaud his brutalities and killings, nor cherish his prowess in lovemaking; but no one can deny that he was a super leader who united his people - and a brilliant general who fought to win - and he did - every battle. And I would rather have him as my icon any day than a mythical character who is an irritable, near-naked, dirty, smelly, unkempt, and intoxicated, trident carrying blue fakir wearing a cobra as a garland, almost all the time on his ass wasting away in drug-induced trance.

"Nature you mind with great thoughts; to believe in the heroic makes heroes!"
Benjamin Disraeli

Perhaps, this is what Gopal Gurung had in mind when he said "Mongol Organization."

As I understand, the nationals of Mongolia are called Mongolians and not Mongols. But I would not say it with certainty. Some words have a way of confusing people. Some writers are very good at playing with words. I may be confused here.

Finally, do not take what I've written here to be facts. Do your own studies. These are just some points to ponder. One can never be sure. It is always advisable to have an open mind, do more reading, research and critical thinking before coming to a conclusion. Even then we can never be sure. Many writers have been proven wrong and some histories let alone myths debunked.


Oh! Yes, I will not be surprised if I'm genetically linked to Genghis Khan - a Mongol.
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premraine

Indigenous

Date Friday, January 18th 2008, 12:27 PM

Dibya is right in the sense that our forefathers were not from Mongolia.we are indigenous people,the earliest settlers of Nepal (I personally believe our forefathers came to Nepal from Yunnan via north Burma and Assam thousands of years ago).However,as a RACE we are Mongoloid until anthropologists and social scientists find another term to replace it.
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premraine

Mongol / Oriental

Date Friday, January 18th 2008, 12:13 PM

Mongol / Mongoloid has two meanings,
1.Traditionally Western Anthropologists divided humans(homo sapiens) into 3 main races,Caucasoids(e.g.very Fair skinned ,blue eyed blondes ,Negroids(very dark skinned with unique hair) and Mongoloids(fair/yellowish coloured with chinky eyes).Here we are talking about races,NOT nationality.

2.People of Mongolia.Here we mean a particular nationality.

If you go to remote village in Nepal,every European Caucasoid is "Amrikan".Perhaps early westerners thought all "yellow people" were from Mongolia.

Oriental means people or things of or from far east(Japan,China etc).Again,if you are a Kirati living in Europe or North America people would take you as an oriental unless they know that you are a south Asian.

All Oriental is a Mongoloid by race,NOT nationality wise.But not all Mongoloids are oriental.
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Dr-Uncle

Dibya is right

Date Friday, January 18th 2008, 8:30 AM

I fully agree with Dibya, We have to convey this fact to Gopal Gurung, who has recently registered a political party "Mongol Organization". I think this name some thing controversial among ourselves/all kirates, particularly referring to any political party in Nepal may not convey the message what it should really mean.
Thank you Dibya for highlighting the reality.
Dr-Uncle Kirati
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Dibya

Kirat are Oriental but not Mangol of Mongolia

Date Thursday, January 17th 2008, 10:19 PM

My point of view.....

Kirat are oriental but not Mangol of Mangolia. People who live in Mangolia are called Mangol. But all Chinese, Mangol, Burmese, Tibetians, Skkimises, Botia, Thai, Korean and all kirat of nepal are oriental.

If we say that we are Mangol we become foriegner not native or indigenous Nepali kirat people.

We have to be very careful...
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premraine

Mlechchha

Date Thursday, January 17th 2008, 5:19 AM

Europeans were also considered Mlechchhas.Mlechchhas were considered to be all the races or groups outside the caste system.
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Dr-Uncle

Perhaps it was a comples among them

Date Wednesday, January 16th 2008, 6:54 PM

Hello Premraine jyu,
I mostly agree with you, however, in my understanding, Aryan called “Mlekshya” to those whose ancestry and parents were not known and they categorized them as the lowest caste entitled for unhygienic labor works considered them even lower than Rakshyasha.

Were the god Shiva and lord Buddha an Hindu god?

Aryan shrewdly capitalized the enormous strength and power of the mightiest Kirat superman “Shiva” after they discovered the benefits. Later they did the same thing with Buddhism and even called as the incarnation of Vishnu after finding his ever expanding popularity.

According to the Hindu scripts and myths, Actually Aryan called all non-Aryan in those days including Kirats as “Rakshyasha” as I said it earlier. Before arrival of the lord Budha, his influence in Asia, most Kirats used to worship Shiva as their ancestral god as their savior, as they believe the Shiva and Parbati are the original creator or the main source of Shamanisms (as you know Kirats traditionally practice Shamanism) and his palace is thought to be the holy Mt “Kailash” which is located in Tibet now, a Kirat region. In the same way, Himalaya Barbat was actually a name of a Kirat person his daughter was “Parbati” married to Shiva, a possible evidence of Shiva being a “Kirats”. The physical structure of “Ganesh”, the son of the Parbati, hailed from Kailash looks more like ‘Kirats’, quite different from Aryan physical structure, could be considered as another evidence of Shiva’s family members being Kirats.

Sindha River Valley Civilization:

On the basis of research evidence it is thought that the original inhabitants of Sindha river valley were Kirats before arrival of Aryan. The researchers found idols of Shiva as old as the time of Kirats, obviously before the arrival of Aryan in those particular places. Kirats greeted them as guests and taught them on the religious values of the god Shiva and other norms of human civilization, subsequently they also exploited his loving and innocent characters and divine strength by worshiping as “Bhole baba”.

Moreover, the Aryan ancestor history called “Veda” (most probably written after discovery of letter/scripts, about 2000 – 2500 years ago) does not explain “Shiva” as Aryan, indicates that Shiva could be Kirats but obviously not Aryan. However, Aryan always tried to please Shiva for their personal benefits. Old history or myths “Kirateshwar” , “Pashupatashara” etc goes in favor of Shiva being a Kirati and interestingly each and every brave and well known “Rashyasha” was always blessed by Shiva. On the basis of these hearsay and Hindu mythology, I would tell that Indo-Aryan might have portraited Kirats as Rakshyasha also along with Dravidians and others as Indo-Aryan might have a superiority or inferiority complex We still need to explore more and more to discover the reality.

Thank you,
Dr-Uncle Kirati
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premraine

Rakshyasha/Rachchhes

Date Wednesday, January 16th 2008, 1:01 PM

Surely when Aryan migrated into south Asia from west they encountered indigenous peoples.In the hills and mountains along the Himalaya they met with fair,golden coloured warriors who loved pigs.Aryans called them Kiratas.The other major group they encountered were dark skinned Dravidas who were mostly living in the plains.Some dark skinned Australoids were Jungle dwellers.I think the latter two races were considered as Rakshyasha by Aryans.Later,however,intermarriage occurred ,and a mixed race evolved.still,the predominant blood and traces in south India is of Dravidas,and in north India Aryan features predominate.Originally,ki ratas,chinas/chinese,Khas as were categorised as chhetriyas.Later they were demoted to Brishal jaati.Interesting to note,Khasas/Khas (the mountain dwelling Non-vedic Aryans) were put in the same category as Kiratas!!
I am not sure about kirats being called Rachchhes,but they were called Mlechchha.
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